Talk:Stopping Ryan
Disloyal and illogical : "but I know it won't stop while that man breathes" How about if Atlas no longer breathed ???? Ryan really got no help, did he? Testxyz (talk) 10:29, January 20, 2014 (UTC) Yes, Atlas would be much better person to be in charge. Such logic makes one wonder if McDonagh all along had been indulging in ADAM products a little too much. McDonagh didn't know that Atlas was really Fontaine. And he really didn't seem to be an Atlas supporter either. He just saw that Ryan had gone past the Moral Event Horizon. And that until Ryan was dead there would be NO chance for the city. If Atlas was dead, someone else just would have taken up his cause. --Solarmech (talk) 16:52, July 13, 2014 (UTC) Which moral event horizon ? The one Atlas long previously went past by murdering people and disrupting the entire safety of everyone in the city (and the economy) -- which BTW was what Ryan was reacting to in the measures HE had to take to stop the killing and destruction. I doubt that the majority of the people in Rapture would see your logic. Atlas is a killer, an instigator of violence and ruin. Ryan is a builder and maintainer of the citizen's world. Who do you think THEY would side with (who would YOU side with when you very well could die, short term or longterm, as a result of your decision of putting the wrong person for Rapture in power) ? Try to put yourself there in that situation and not as if you were in our safe world out here just playing a game. 07:15, July 14, 2014 (UTC) You mean the Andrew Ryan the man who ordered the kidnapping of little girls so they could be turned into Little Sisters? Did he ? Most already were connected to Fontaine Futuristics already werent they? How much was done behind Ryans back by people who worked for him? How many other com[panies produced ADAM products who had their LittleSisters 'working' for them? Hardly any details given, just that Ryan himself finds it abhorrent, but neccessary (at least til some solution is found). You mean the Andrew Ryan that had people turned into living robots after mind raping them to protect those Little Sisters as they drained blood from the dead and drank it (Big Daddies)? Maybe you missed that the 'sea workers' preexisted the 'Protectors' - created by who? Fontaine Futuristics from people used in their testing ? (long before Ryan ran that company ). How many were volunteers or violently insane criminals (plenty of those after Fontaine started selling his poison). Much better to just kill them all, no ? You mean the Andrew Ryan who had anyone that criticised him arrested and killed (Anna Culpepper for instence)? Criticised Raptures Philosophry which the whole society was based on and advocated parasitism that the people in Rapture went there to escape? You mean like FDR and Churchill did (historic fact) and Ryan did to people who tried to incite others to violence to destroy order and Rapture and grab it for themselves ? You might want to google 'sedition laws'. You mean the Andrew Ryan who let Sander Cohen kill people when his Muse said to do so? You mean like Ryan who some people believe was an omnipotent god and controlled what everyone in Rapture did? You mean Ryan who was Busy trying to eliminate the terrorist Atlas and his murdering and destructive Splicer army (threatening the life of everyone in Rapture) ... Ryan who didnt have a SS and Gestapo to control every person in Rapture every tiny bit? You mean the Andrew Ryan that killed his mistress? You mean the ex-Mistress who conspired and sold Ryans unborn child into slavery to an evil criminal who wanted it to used to kill Ryans and take over Rapture? The only reason that Atlas got support for his cause was that people had *already* started to hate Andrew Ryan and what he was doing. Only reason? No, Atlas handed out food and bribed them (and being Fontaine had many other ways to coerse them like he had his workers) and told them what they wanted to hear. You might recall that the strict War Measures that Ryan start happened AFTER aAtlas started murdering citizens. Hell, his girlfriend turned againt him once she saw what Ryan had ordered. You mean his Ex-Girlfriend who spitefully in revenge (read her audio diaries) glombed-onto the 'romatic' rebel leader 'Atlas' and took part in his revolutionary murdering and destruction? Again saying stupid things like 'Ryan started it' when it was Atlas's actions that actually FORCED Ryan to take strong measures to SAVE his City and the Citizens in it. If Ryan had acted decently, Atlas would not have had any support. Whats decently? Telling people that they have to play by the rules that they had already agreed to ? To TAKE from other people to give to others. To turn Rature into the Parasite Swamp that the Surface world was and that Raptures people had left? Ryan allowed charities to exist. Why didnt Atlas just organize rich people to help the unfortunates instead of starting to blow up and murder people, to destroy city infrastructure, to incite overthro of order and offer no solutions himself. Maybe you should be asking WHY DIDNT ATLAS ACT DECENTLY ??? But he acted like a monster and people revolted against that. --Solarmech (talk) 13:22, July 14, 2014 (UTC) Monster? Review all your misassumptions above. BTW how many people 'Revolted' ?? How many other peoples lives and livelihoods were destroyed by Atlas's way of 'fixing things'. It wasnt Ryan who was the 'monster'. Agreed; also (and this is in regard to the anonymous poster) if you really want us to "put ourselves there" as if this were real life, I suggest you do the same. You're making the mistake of thinking of Atlas in the same way you do Fontaine. Stop that. You know them by their actions. Atlas the rabble rouser, the inciter of Riots. I can jusde Atlas by what he did. Maybe you should look at it that way also. To McDonagh, and the rest of the city, Fontaine was dead. They had absolutely no knowledge that everything Atlas said was a lie. Again just go by what Atlas said and did The way they saw it, Atlas was a true man of the people, a savior who would free them from Ryan's increasingly tyrannical rule. Who is 'they' ? What problem did MOST of people really have - I would bet if it was real MOST of the people in Rapture would agree with what was done with Fontaine (City running the company was a minor detail) and then to suppress a terrorist like Atlas (again Ryan is reacting - not 'starting it') Read your history. late 40s and early 50s history. Put yourself in the shoes of people who knew what collectivists and statists were (from their recent history) and the false promises they endlessly made while seizing power and murdering millions who didnt agree with them or their methods. ''' Let's remember that one of the major points of contention between McDonagh and Ryan was the nationalizing of Fontaine Futuristics after Fontaine's "death". That right there was a big red warning light that Ryan was beginning to turn into the government tyrant against which he had always preached. '''And what was the alternative offered (as in nothing practical). ADAM production stops and how many people in Rapture go crazy ? Fontaine had no relatives, probably no competant lieutenants or ones who werent likewise coconspirators in Fontaines crimes. Who is to operate thge company or should it just be abandoned. The writers had to precipitate this situation so they didnt have the company turned over to one of Raptur's other possible candidates - Sinclair ? Why not offer it to McDonagh if he thought Ryan assuming control (it seems now by default) was 'wrong' ?????? Warning light for something there apparently was no other solution for . Please YOU suggest something that actually would have worked. "Turn them over to Fontaines boys" (criminals?) "Turn them over to Atlas boys" (atlas was an unknownt then according to McDonagh)? Who else ??? ''' Contrast that with Atlas, who had set up shop in the poor house and was giving people a helping hand, and who would you side with? Key of Destiny (talk) 14:40, July 14, 2014 (UTC) '''Set up a poor house to recruit an army -- want that how McDonagh put it ?? A helping hand (btw where did he get all this stuff he was handing those people (few or many people) - he was supposed to be a modest fisherman worker wasnt he? No some rich person to buy all thes stuff. Was he stealing it all (which automatically means TAKEN from the legal owner). No mention of rich people giving him donations like Lamb had. Atlas could have tried to do it legally but instead soon showed his hand when he incited violence and then became a murdereing terrorist. WHO do YOU still side with ? Also (to wikia contributor 75....), given that you're giving your subjective opinion on how a society of both different and like minded individuals ''would make their choices between two factions, one faction who has exploited his power against its citizens and responsible for the disappearance of many, the enslavement of citizens including little girls, the silence of popular opinion that wasn't his own, nationalized a business despite his own policies against governmental-like actions, a slaughter by his command among other atrocities; and the other who appeared as an alternative to his opponent's tyrannical tirade, who became the voice of the people, who provided food, shelter and support to those who needed it and who asked for nothing of them in return (These people will liberate themselves), how could you dictate what these people should have thought or chose? '''All same reply, your misassumptions and opinions are answered above. Ryan built and maintained order Atlas killed people and destroyed. ' Liberate other peoples goods and kill them? You (and the game writers) are avoiding all the REST of the people in Rapture who would side with Ryan and who dont want Altas's kind of 'liberation'. Unfortunately the methods of Gandhi dont cause a wrecked Failtopia for us to go fighting and slaughering countless crazed mutants. BTW using you logic --- Isnt YOUR 'subjective' opinion similarly invalid as you insist as being part of your counter-argument ? As Key is saying, you're possibly reading Atlas as Fontaine, and your opinions aren't always shared by others on this wikia just as one individual in Rapture may or may not be in support of Ryan or Atlas. Or more Possibly not (that logic refuted above) Again 'Your opinion' thus must be just as invalid or unworthy of discussion then? You cannot have it both ways. You can find examples of societies that support your position as an opposing side can do the same in the support of theirs, but the thing is, this is a work of fiction. Even works on non-fiction twist reality. In a story, when a character acts "normal" by whatever standards normality is, it appears odd. If people dont operate from the frame of their time and society and are automatically something else its a problem here. "Bio" "Shock" is about the effects of a new technology (bio) on a normal modern society (this one is close to the american commercial world/society of that time despite the attempt to label it 'objectivism or 'right wing extremist' or libertarian or whatever other bug was up the writers collective asses) , and how the people would under the circumstances be expected to react (shock). Not some wildly fantasy society which we dont have understanding of or cant really relate to. Compared to you typical communist regime Rapture was very close to American Society at the time portrayed. Writers often make settings, characters and other assets to be hyper-realistic, no shades of gray, no in between. It's readible by an audience, you have a character who's either a coward or brave, not both at the same time. There's either one or the other. Tricksteroffools (talk) 03:29, July 15, 2014 (UTC) If you couldnt see the shades of grey in Bioshock Rapture it mustve been too dark for you. Its full of ambiguities and complicated issues (even with the writes storytelling limitations). Various things are presented from many points of view (often not enough to show the real situation) and the issues involved and characters are far from black and white. 04:49, July 15, 2014 (UTC) END ALL: THIS OVERALL ARGUMENT IS INVALID. None of you can argue for the voice of people, of anyone else but yourself especially that of people who've never existed, who's "existance" is fabricated for the sake of story. You can certainly argue for yourself, own thoughts and opinion but nothing else. You can only assume, only think as far as whatever media is given but it's just that, assumptions. Assumptions piled on by other assumptions to only be dissed by assumptions. They can be right, they can be wrong, they can be both because unless it's laid out in front of you as undeniable truth, its really none. Enough of this already. People are treating this like a forum and ends up just being some long winded arguments with two opposing sides not coming to terms with one another and ultimately not getting anywhere. Frankly, this isn't furthering anything. Not the wikia, not people's thoughts or positions, NOTHING. It's just users voicing their opinion on what they like or don't like. We really need more moderators to sort through this trash, or at least some kind of guidelines. And please don't nitpick this, it's quite childish and frustrating, both to you and to other commenters. I'm not arguing against any of you, I'm arguing for the sake of ending this.